Página 4 de 14 PrimeiroPrimeiro 123456789 ... ÚltimoÚltimo
+ Responder ao Tópico



  1. #19

    Padrão

    [QUOTE = raumaster; 842137] Yes, the downtime and the cost of equipment is of a major concern. The amount of money we've spent on electronics is not the problem, the problem is really the downtime and the furious clients calling us because "the Internet" is not working ...

    What is holding us back on the decision of buying your system is the price of the product after all the taxes are paid when it arrives at our door and the fact that there is no regulation in my country approving these kinds of lightning protection or lighrning avoidance systems. Our main tower is located near by houses where dozens of people live and if demages are made by lightning strikes and someone decides that our tower is the "culprit" and call an inspector or someone from the government to check if everthing is okay and within all regulations you get the picture ... I've read somehere that your system is not approved in american countries and many other countries, so this holds back my decision as well, not only the price.

    You guys from MTO have told me once that I should eliminate all lightning rods from the tower but this makes me uncomfotable since this is what all regulations ask to have in any tower or high rise construction. What if a lightning strike "decides" to hit our tower directly even if your product is installed correctly? You guys can give us 100% guarantee that no lightning will ever hit our tower? And if it hits our tower, wouldn't it be more destructive if the lightning rod were there to conduct all the energy to earth? [/ QUOTE]



    Good morning. Let me go through your concerns one by one in English since that you are confortable with this language too.

    First of all, I appreciate your sense of responsibility that you pay attention to the downtime of your service and the complaints from your clients more than the loss in equipment. In most cases this is the opposite. This gives me the idea that you try to give the best service with no interruptions not only today, but for long period of time in order to grow your business. This is important to us because what we try to do is to support our clients’ operations and let them give even a better servce to their customers even in the heaviest lightning conditions where their competitors fail.

    Regarding the regulations in your country; we challenge you to find any single international lightning protection standard which advices lightning arresters as a protection method for metal towers. If you can find an international lightning protection standard that declares a written note that lightning arresters/lightning rods/Franklin rods can be applied on metal telecommunication towers, please send to [email protected] , I took the promise of my management,we will send you the EvoDis System for 1 one your towers free of charge!

    Regarding any possible complaints from residences around the tower, I believe that you are not responsible to attract all lightning strikes on your tower, correct? When your tower did not exist in that area, lightning was still striking to somewhere in the region, and by erecting the tower, you started to collect all lightning strikes on your tower. Considering that you are not obligated to do that, you naturally have the rights to protect your tower from lightning. For example, if the houses were the targets of thieves before your site was there, and if your site is the new target of theft because of the valuable electronics and/or copper cables, would you leave the door of the shelter open or would you take any precaution possible? And I don’t think that anybody can sue your company since that you have put alarm at the door of shelter and thieves start getting into the unprotected houses around again. Using EvoDis System makes your tower invisible to lightning strikes. Which means that lightning acts as if the tower does not exist there. EvoDis does not redirect the strikes to any other place, only takes the disadvantage of being the primary target of lightning strikes away, and turns the situation to the one before your tower was erected in the area. And if any inspection occurs, you should ask for an admissible standard that indcates the lightning arresters as the protection method for metal towers.

    We have applied EvoDis System on over 1500 sites all over the world and never received any restriction, including USA where we just shipped EvoDis Units last week for a telecom tower and last month for a tower crane.

    Lightning rods are attracting lightning strikes. EvoDis System prevents them to hit your tower. The existance of lightning rod lowers the performance of EvoDis System and hence we ask our clients to take all lightning rods off the tower, and the conductor cables as well because EvoDis does not need a conductor cable. Lightning does not hit the towers with EvoDis System. We have conducted high voltage lab tests for this, and calculated the potential of an imaginary lightning strike which can hit EvoDis Units. It does not exist. Besides, I think you would agree that it is not a coinsidence to have all 1500 sites including telecom towers, radio-tv broadcast towers, tower cranes, sailboats, CCTV poles, hv transmission towers, etc have been protected 100% successfully for the past 12+ years! All had been hit by lightning strikes many times before EvoDis applications, and NONE of them got hit by lightning since EvoDis installations.

    What you have asked for is not warranty, it is insurance. Nobody can give that warranty. However, first time ever, we apply such a warranty for No-Strike for sailboat applications with no additional cost. We can not give such as warranty for other fields of application for now but maybe in the future it can be done.

    Long story short; you have been using lightning arresters with down conductors and a proper grounding system. Eventhough this is not an approved solution for telecom towers in any international standard, you do that because this is the only protection method you know, and it has been applied on ordinary buildings for over 300 years. But you still suffer from lightning related damages in your equipment and loss of service. 10 years from now, if we can have a chance to discuss this issue here in this forum again, you will still have the same losses due to lightning and you will have lost 10 times annual loss due to lightning related damages.

    I understand that the final cost becomes considerably high due to the taxes applied by your government but not taking any precautions to lightning strikes does not let you make any profit. If you make a decision, and if you have your contact person from our marketing team in your mailbox, please go ahead and let him/her informed about this discussion and that price is the only issue. They may find a solution profitable for you.

    Regards,
    Erdem.

  2. #20

    Padrão Re: Sistema de prevenção contra raios.

    Citação Postado originalmente por raumaster Ver Post
    Aí queima a bagaça la em cima da torre junto com os rádios... pode minimizar, mas por ter que levar a energia num cabo a parte e ter mais uma bagaça eletronica em cima da torre, dá no mesmo! Fora o custo! Esse Fiberpoe alimenta quantos rádios? Pq tenho 11 rádios numa torre...
    Ele so alimenta um radio pois o ideal e colocar cada um colado no radio com apenas um cabinho curtisssimo de cabo utp e quanto a levar energia separado procure cabo hibrido da empresa fibracem que vc só leva um cabo e antes queimar ele do que o radio. Mais os maiores problemas de queima de porta lan do radio e cabos longos utp se descer uma fibra drop para cada radio com fiber poe ja vai eliminar esse problema.
    Agora se vc quer alimentar mais radio ai vc tem que procurar o edgpoint da ubnt mais com ele vc vai ter que colocar cabos utp mais longo dependendo da onde for colocar na torre Esse edgpoint tem de 6 portas a 16 se nao me engano. O ideal e dois da versão mais barata deles de 6 portas para alimentar todos os seus radios ai vc usa uma fibra só mais ainda eu so um fiber poe para cada radio pois um cabo curtissimo de utp para cada radio é o ideal. Se for usar fiber poe alem de comprar ele vc tem que comprar um modulo gbic que pode ser de 3km e de preferencia para uma fibra só pois alguns usam aquele de duas via que não a necessidade e embaixo vc vai precisar de um switch ou rb de fibra ai vai ter que ter modulos gbic para cada fiber poe tipo um fiber poe la encima com um modulo gbic A ou B e la no switch um modulo gbic A ou B para o fiberpoe. O edgpoint vc leva uma fibra só o ideal do edgpoint é usar a versao mais barata deixando cada um num setor da sua torre que concentre mais radios proximos ai iria descer só uma fibra pra cada um. e seria duas fibras em fez de 11 fibras se fosse usar um fiberpoe por radio. Edgpoint a versao mais simples e 5 portas eletricas e uma fibra entao vc tem onze radios poderia comprar 3 edgpoint ai um ja taria preparado para receber mais 4 radio.



  3. #21

    Padrão Re: Sistema de prevenção contra raios.

    Achei um link para vc comprar dissipador de estatica e não é tao caro assim https://www.ebay.com/itm/DISSIPATOR-...MAAOSwj-BbFx5o acho que da para usar isso aqui https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...a-c7acbfee20cf

  4. #22

    Padrão

    Salvei o link nos favoritos pra falar desses dissipadores de carga mas esqueci...

    Bom, no passado o mundo da telecom usava isso aos montes, é só uma escova de aço, as pontas finas fazem o trabalho de trocar carga com o ar, a tendência é equalizar a polarização, ainda tem raio as vezes porque nuvem que chega rápido em outra polarização (Em relação ao solo debaixo da torre, porque o solo 1km longe não importa) não dá tempo de fazer essa troca. Mas já elimina a maior parte do problema.

    Meter um monte de escovas de aço ou cobre (Não serve alumínio nem compósito plástico) numa torre custa mixaria, mas pagar US$ 10 mil por algo similar não vejo sentido.

    Pra quem está estranhando o formato desse sistema turco, que parece um tubo, é só uma escova de aço tipo aquela de limpar mamadeira, tem de outros cantos do mundo:

    Clique na imagem para uma versão maior

Nome:	         dissipation-array-terminal-500x500.png
Visualizações:	6
Tamanho: 	281,1 KB
ID:      	69792

    Falta NBR sobre isso porque isso não é para-raios, dissipador de carga é diferente de para-raios, um não substitui o outro, mas quem quiser viver sem um, se colocar muito dissipador talvez viva sem raios, tem torre que naturalmente já passa anos sem queimas (Em zona rural as vezes tem uma torre a cada 2 ou 3km, nem por isso na temporada de chuvas queima tudo 1x por ano, as vezes metade das torres passa 3 anos sem queimas).

    Ah, as escovas pra limpar solda, sejam as pra furadeira ou retífica (Exemplo: https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...-mm-rocast-_JM), ou as com cabo plástico removível (Exemplo: https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...m-brasfort-_JM) tem fio fino por isso servem muito bem, usam latão ou aço então a corrosão ao longo dos anos é baixa, é o tipo de coisa que pelo preço vale muito a pena colocar meia duzia no alto e meio da torre, unindo direitinho à carcaça ou ao cabo do aterramento (Onde já tem pintura grossa e o cabo está acessível). Idealmente ela devia ficar pra fora da estrutura por conta da estática que o vento cria na própria tinta da torre, mas puxar fio do para-raio pra lateral as vezes é um problema.



  5. #23

    Padrão Re: Sistema de prevenção contra raios.

    Citação Postado originalmente por ErdemOzkan Ver Post
    [QUOTE = raumaster; 842137] Yes, the downtime and the cost of equipment is of a major concern. The amount of money we've spent on electronics is not the problem, the problem is really the downtime and the furious clients calling us because "the Internet" is not working ...

    What is holding us back on the decision of buying your system is the price of the product after all the taxes are paid when it arrives at our door and the fact that there is no regulation in my country approving these kinds of lightning protection or lighrning avoidance systems. Our main tower is located near by houses where dozens of people live and if demages are made by lightning strikes and someone decides that our tower is the "culprit" and call an inspector or someone from the government to check if everthing is okay and within all regulations you get the picture ... I've read somehere that your system is not approved in american countries and many other countries, so this holds back my decision as well, not only the price.

    You guys from MTO have told me once that I should eliminate all lightning rods from the tower but this makes me uncomfotable since this is what all regulations ask to have in any tower or high rise construction. What if a lightning strike "decides" to hit our tower directly even if your product is installed correctly? You guys can give us 100% guarantee that no lightning will ever hit our tower? And if it hits our tower, wouldn't it be more destructive if the lightning rod were there to conduct all the energy to earth? [/ QUOTE]



    Good morning. Let me go through your concerns one by one in English since that you are confortable with this language too.

    First of all, I appreciate your sense of responsibility that you pay attention to the downtime of your service and the complaints from your clients more than the loss in equipment. In most cases this is the opposite. This gives me the idea that you try to give the best service with no interruptions not only today, but for long period of time in order to grow your business. This is important to us because what we try to do is to support our clients’ operations and let them give even a better servce to their customers even in the heaviest lightning conditions where their competitors fail.

    Regarding the regulations in your country; we challenge you to find any single international lightning protection standard which advices lightning arresters as a protection method for metal towers. If you can find an international lightning protection standard that declares a written note that lightning arresters/lightning rods/Franklin rods can be applied on metal telecommunication towers, please send to [email protected] , I took the promise of my management,we will send you the EvoDis System for 1 one your towers free of charge!

    Regarding any possible complaints from residences around the tower, I believe that you are not responsible to attract all lightning strikes on your tower, correct? When your tower did not exist in that area, lightning was still striking to somewhere in the region, and by erecting the tower, you started to collect all lightning strikes on your tower. Considering that you are not obligated to do that, you naturally have the rights to protect your tower from lightning. For example, if the houses were the targets of thieves before your site was there, and if your site is the new target of theft because of the valuable electronics and/or copper cables, would you leave the door of the shelter open or would you take any precaution possible? And I don’t think that anybody can sue your company since that you have put alarm at the door of shelter and thieves start getting into the unprotected houses around again. Using EvoDis System makes your tower invisible to lightning strikes. Which means that lightning acts as if the tower does not exist there. EvoDis does not redirect the strikes to any other place, only takes the disadvantage of being the primary target of lightning strikes away, and turns the situation to the one before your tower was erected in the area. And if any inspection occurs, you should ask for an admissible standard that indcates the lightning arresters as the protection method for metal towers.

    We have applied EvoDis System on over 1500 sites all over the world and never received any restriction, including USA where we just shipped EvoDis Units last week for a telecom tower and last month for a tower crane.

    Lightning rods are attracting lightning strikes. EvoDis System prevents them to hit your tower. The existance of lightning rod lowers the performance of EvoDis System and hence we ask our clients to take all lightning rods off the tower, and the conductor cables as well because EvoDis does not need a conductor cable. Lightning does not hit the towers with EvoDis System. We have conducted high voltage lab tests for this, and calculated the potential of an imaginary lightning strike which can hit EvoDis Units. It does not exist. Besides, I think you would agree that it is not a coinsidence to have all 1500 sites including telecom towers, radio-tv broadcast towers, tower cranes, sailboats, CCTV poles, hv transmission towers, etc have been protected 100% successfully for the past 12+ years! All had been hit by lightning strikes many times before EvoDis applications, and NONE of them got hit by lightning since EvoDis installations.

    What you have asked for is not warranty, it is insurance. Nobody can give that warranty. However, first time ever, we apply such a warranty for No-Strike for sailboat applications with no additional cost. We can not give such as warranty for other fields of application for now but maybe in the future it can be done.

    Long story short; you have been using lightning arresters with down conductors and a proper grounding system. Eventhough this is not an approved solution for telecom towers in any international standard, you do that because this is the only protection method you know, and it has been applied on ordinary buildings for over 300 years. But you still suffer from lightning related damages in your equipment and loss of service. 10 years from now, if we can have a chance to discuss this issue here in this forum again, you will still have the same losses due to lightning and you will have lost 10 times annual loss due to lightning related damages.

    I understand that the final cost becomes considerably high due to the taxes applied by your government but not taking any precautions to lightning strikes does not let you make any profit. If you make a decision, and if you have your contact person from our marketing team in your mailbox, please go ahead and let him/her informed about this discussion and that price is the only issue. They may find a solution profitable for you.

    Regards,
    Erdem.
    Hi Erdem!

    Thanks for spending your time for answering all my doubts!

    Well, I don't know if in my country there's an obligation for metal towers to have lightning rods, what I know is every company tower uses it and also in many buildings there is one. In Brazil we have a regulation called NBR 5419:2015, it was revised in 2015 and is is a very big regulation book regarding all mainstream protection systems and good practices. I know there is an obligation for hospitals, churches and schools to have a lightning rod, but for telecom metal towers I have to check.

    I agree with all your others stataments, but talking about the price we have one big problem regard our currency in Brazil, the "Real" is very devaluated in relation to the Dollar currency, moren than 4 times lower which means for exemple, 3000 dollars get as high as $10.000 in our currency which is 11 times more then the minimium wage in our country so, it is a lot of money for us! With R$ 10.000 I can pay for all radios installed in one tower... At the moment we can't afford R$ 10,000 plus taxes.

    Citação Postado originalmente por rubem Ver Post
    Salvei o link nos favoritos pra falar desses dissipadores de carga mas esqueci...

    Bom, no passado o mundo da telecom usava isso aos montes, é só uma escova de aço, as pontas finas fazem o trabalho de trocar carga com o ar, a tendência é equalizar a polarização, ainda tem raio as vezes porque nuvem que chega rápido em outra polarização (Em relação ao solo debaixo da torre, porque o solo 1km longe não importa) não dá tempo de fazer essa troca. Mas já elimina a maior parte do problema.

    Meter um monte de escovas de aço ou cobre (Não serve alumínio nem compósito plástico) numa torre custa mixaria, mas pagar US$ 10 mil por algo similar não vejo sentido.

    Pra quem está estranhando o formato desse sistema turco, que parece um tubo, é só uma escova de aço tipo aquela de limpar mamadeira, tem de outros cantos do mundo:

    Clique na imagem para uma versão maior

Nome:	         dissipation-array-terminal-500x500.png
Visualizações:	6
Tamanho: 	281,1 KB
ID:      	69792

    Falta NBR sobre isso porque isso não é para-raios, dissipador de carga é diferente de para-raios, um não substitui o outro, mas quem quiser viver sem um, se colocar muito dissipador talvez viva sem raios, tem torre que naturalmente já passa anos sem queimas (Em zona rural as vezes tem uma torre a cada 2 ou 3km, nem por isso na temporada de chuvas queima tudo 1x por ano, as vezes metade das torres passa 3 anos sem queimas).

    Ah, as escovas pra limpar solda, sejam as pra furadeira ou retífica (Exemplo: https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...-mm-rocast-_JM), ou as com cabo plástico removível (Exemplo: https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/...m-brasfort-_JM) tem fio fino por isso servem muito bem, usam latão ou aço então a corrosão ao longo dos anos é baixa, é o tipo de coisa que pelo preço vale muito a pena colocar meia duzia no alto e meio da torre, unindo direitinho à carcaça ou ao cabo do aterramento (Onde já tem pintura grossa e o cabo está acessível). Idealmente ela devia ficar pra fora da estrutura por conta da estática que o vento cria na própria tinta da torre, mas puxar fio do para-raio pra lateral as vezes é um problema.
    Rubem, se esse sistema de cerdas metálicas for capaz de ao menos reduzir as chances de um raio atingir a torre diretamente, já seria uma boa! Eu daria preferencia a comprar de uma empresa que tem casos de sucesso, pelo menos dizem ter, que parece ter testes laboratoriais feitos, vendem pra todo mundo e o produto deles parece ter bastante pontinhas metalicas, bem mais do que qualquer outro similar ou escovas mecalicas que já vi sendo vendidas, não sei se isso faz diferença, mas a gente fica mais tranquilo comprar de quem vende com esse propósito. Infelizmente com o valor de mais de 4 reais do dólar hoje, mais impostos e frete, fica impraticável importar, mesmo eu conseguindo comprar sem imposto, ainda assim fica pesadíssimo!

    EDITADO:

    Aqui tivemos duas queimas num mesmo ano, na mesma torre, depois de erguida no ano anterior! Azar? Não sei... Uma descarga foi no final da temporada de raios em 2018 e a outra no inicio das chuvas em Outubro desse mesmo ano. Essa torre em específico foi erguida final de 2017 e daí vem minha vondade de fazer algo pra que isso não aconteça tão cedo denovo. Agora pro inicio das chuvas já tamos esperando novamente acontecer.

  6. #24

    Padrão Re: Sistema de prevenção contra raios.

    Na minha opniao esses da cerda ja dá para ajudar e o valor que ta vale apena tentar agora se vc quer com mais cerda tem aquele do link do ebay E aqueles de avioes que ele protege um aviao porque não uma torre.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/DISSIPATOR-...MAAOSwj-BbFx5o
    Procure por Lightning Master.
    Tem varios videos por ai